Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman, an Autistic Researcher Studying Autism in Higher Education

Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman is an autistic higher education researcher and co-lead of the PEACES study. We talk about what success means for autistic post-secondary students, the impact of internalized ableism and masking, and how campuses can better support marginalized autistic students, including LGBTQIA+ and late-identified individuals.

Brett shares insights from both personal experience and research, and we reflect on the importance of autistic-led scholarship and inclusive academic spaces. This conversation left me feeling hopeful — and I think it will do the same for you.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman's Instagram, BlueSky, and email

Learn more about topics discussed in this episode:

College Autism Network

PEACES Project

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Theme music: "Everything Feels New" by Evgeny Bardyuzha.

All episodes written and produced by Kristen Hovet.

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Chapters

• 18:01 [Ad] Higher Listenings: Joy for Educators
• 18:39 (Cont.) Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman, an Autistic Researcher Studying Autism in Higher Education

Transcript

Kristen Hovet (00:00)
Today I'm speaking with Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman, an autistic autism and higher education researcher and professor who focuses on autistic college student success. Brett is currently based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Before I share our conversation, I'd like to thank Anne for buying me three coffees. Thank you, Anne, for your support of the show. If you would like to also buy me a coffee, check out the show notes for the link that says buy me a coffee.

Please say hello to Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman.

Brett Ranon Nachman (00:31)
Hi, my name is Brett Ranon Nachman. I'm an assistant professor of higher education at the University of Pittsburgh. I am an autistic, autism, higher education researcher.

Kristen Hovet (00:43)
What inspired you to focus your research on autistic post-secondary student success? And how has your perspective as an autistic academic informed your work?

Brett Ranon Nachman (00:54)
Well, much of my professional interests are informed by my personal experiences. I started higher education as a 17 year old autistic community college student. I was at the time very much closed about my autism identity as a means of protecting myself from potential stigmatization and fears of being judged by others. A certain degree of internalized ableism, for that matter, and anxieties as I pursued college. I was very actively involved editing our student newspaper, had a lot of anxieties, but through spaces where my perspectives mattered and that I could generate good ideas for events and programming and various things, I felt a greater sense of pride in myself and ability to be present. And ultimately, when I graduated from community college, I was our student commencement speaker. And I used that as an opportunity to talk about my autism identity publicly and for me it was a great sense of joy and self-acceptance, for that matter, and inspired some interesting conversations with folks who both knew and didn't know me. 

All that to say that my research in many ways is informed by that period of my life when I was coming into my own and still am in many ways, but where I want to ultimately be a supporter of autistic college students' experiences. My undergraduate degree was in journalism. I realized I could channel my love of human storytelling into a different form. In my case, as a researcher, primarily qualitative, but I also am part of mixed methods work where my main role is to bring other stories, particularly autistic college student stories, to wider audiences and to ultimately, hopefully, enact campus changes on a variety of fronts in teaching practices and through professional development. My master's and doctorate are in the field of higher education. Basically, I'm a higher education scholar, someone who's in higher ed but studies higher ed and studies college students for a living. And it's very natural for me because I love academia and how it provides a number of opportunities for folks, especially for young folks, and students in their own development and autistic folks are a part of that conversation. 

So my work on autistic college student success is not only a reflection of me thinking back to my own experiences, but recognizing that as a white middle-class man, I have been afforded a lot of privilege and I'm also very emblematic of what common depictions of autism are, but we all know that autism is much more multifaceted than those common media stereotypes and depictions. And so my role is to also work with and help elevate the perspectives of autistic college students and folks in the autism community who have not been heard and seen in the same ways as folks who have formal diagnoses. I view student success as complicated and multifaceted. And my colleagues and I, and I'll talk about this further as our conversation goes on, is really all about showing the different domains and layers of what student success is.

Kristen Hovet (04:07)
That's awesome. Thank you. I've heard a lot about internalized ableism lately. I know you mentioned that briefly. And I know that that has a huge impact on autistic individuals' sense of self. Can you speak more to first of all, what that is for those who might not have heard that term before and how it can influence our sense of self?

Brett Ranon Nachman (04:29)
Yeah, I think internalized ableism looks differently for everybody. And there's also a certain degree of fluidity to it. I imagine listeners of this podcast are not unfamiliar with the idea that our own connections to and level of engagement in the autism community evolves over time and who's in your community, if you're yourself autistic and how recently you may have had that realization or diagnosis. And I think for me, you know, I grew up in a time where, mind you, I'm in my early thirties, but when I was diagnosed with Asperger's at eight, it was very medicalized back then. It was very deficit-based. And not to say that those conversations aren't still present today, and particularly in certain sectors. Our understandings of autism have changed markedly in these decades since. 

So my sense of internalized ableism was not necessarily a mirror of the environment that I grew up in, which was very much focused on strengths and a very supportive household. And I'm thankful for that. But it was a reflection of the broader society that I and other children of my era were immersed in, where there were barely any depictions of autism in fictional media. The only depictions in real life autistic folks, it's your Temple Grandins and famous figures who we believe were autistic, but never had those formal diagnoses. Autism has often been painted with certain broad strokes and we know, as there's been a greater emphasis on autism as a form of social identity and social justice, that there's a wide variety of manifestations of autism that we hopefully do not prescribe to outdated notions around functionality but rather recognizing the differences in communication and strengths and challenges associated with autism, most of those challenges being more socially imposed and structurally imposed. 

So my internalized ableism or... and I think how many folks experience it is where there's a sense of shame or trying to mask or conceal the presentations or characteristics that have been determined by the general society as problematic or negative. There are elements of my autism that have been very compromising in terms of, you know, I'm a lot better now in terms of how I can perceive nonverbal communication than I was when I was a child, but that still makes it hard in certain social settings. But I think the way I've dealt with my internalized ableism is thankfully a lot more learning about autism, participating in various aspects of autism community, but also being more in a culture where I think autism is celebrated more than it used to be and where we realize that there's a lot more types of conversations that are being had. I don't think it completely goes away, but it is something where, through one's development and through your engagement in different spaces, you realize that your identity should be welcomed and celebrated as opposed to suppressed.

Kristen Hovet (07:24)
You're leading a major national study called PEACES, short for Post-Secondary Education Autistic Collegians' Experiences of Success. What are some of the key insights that have emerged so far, especially around how autistic students define success on their own terms?

Brett Ranon Nachman (07:43)
This is a study that is really major in scale because it is a culmination of a lot of years of work and planning and development. Alongside myself is Dr. Brad Cox, an associate professor at Michigan State University, who is the primary investigator, principal investigator on the study. I'm the right-hand person there, but we also have a great team of postdoc and grad students and researchers, an autistic advisory board, among other folks who are all consultants who are all crucial to this endeavor. 

This study is exciting on a number of fronts. One is that it's really huge in scale. We have, over the course of the past three years, gathered information... data from more than a thousand individual autistic undergraduate college students, which for listeners who don't spend their days like me where you're reading through journal articles, our understandings of autistic college students to date from a research scholarly sense, is often limited to single site, single university settings, or in the two digits, a few dozen students maybe. What Brad and I have been working on over many years is trying to figure out how do we learn about students across the board, across the whole United States, and through our infrastructure, our connections, our personal investment in this space, and our understanding and engagement in higher education as a field, we've essentially assembled a nationwide study. It's a survey that students have been able to access through social media, through their own disability services offices, through autism support programs, through other campus professionals, disability listservs. What's important for us is that we're able to help tell stories at a broader scale. 

I recognize I'm giving you a little bit of context before addressing the question, but I think it's worth establishing the infrastructure for this has taken a long time and has ultimately been really important to build. So, over these three years and through funding from organizations like the Spencer Foundation and others, we have distributed surveys, conducted interviews, and gathered photo voice submissions from surveys, more than a thousand, well over a thousand, but we've also conducted dozens of interviews, gathered dozens of photo voice submissions. And what we're trying to do here is... it's not our role to figure out what success is for autistic college students. We're putting the ball in their court. And that's the whole purpose of the study is it's allowing them to craft their own definitions of success. And what we're finding is that success is very multifaceted, unsurprisingly. 

In our survey and subsequent, we've essentially accounted for five primary domains of students' lives. One is their identity, it's not only as autistic and the different characteristics and presentations of autism, but also other salient identities in their lives, right? Perhaps being a woman, perhaps being black or African-American, perhaps being first generation or queer or additional salient identities. 

Psychology is another domain, we're thinking about mental health, co-occurrence with having anxiety or depression. Academics, thinking about classroom experiences and faculty interactions, handling assignments. The community domain is all about those friendships and engagement that students find on their college campuses, and employment. 

We know that there's high levels of unemployment, underemployment in the autism community, and that colleges and those interactions on college campuses are often instrumental in forging those paths forward. These domains inform some of the questions that we're asking on the survey and in the interviews, but we're ultimately, more than anything, allowing students to surface what matters to them.

So what are we finding? What are the main insights in terms of what defines student success? For one, a big part of it is their academic performance, unsurprisingly, getting good grades, graduating. It's also along the lines of being able to handle the unique challenges that are distinct in autistic spaces, right? Like dealing with hypersensitivity or figuring out those executive functioning skills, finding community in autism support programs or student organizations where there are autistic folks.

Success is building those friendships. That's been a huge finding here for us. That's one of the most highly rated items and talking points. Additionally, definitive to student success is in being able to advocate for one's needs. And I think what's worth noting is that it's not one singular thing. It's the combination of factors that allow autistic students to feel successful, particularly in environments that were never really designed for them. So it's them essentially crafting their own journeys and paths and hopefully having supportive figures along the way.

Kristen Hovet (12:31)
As you mentioned, a unique strength of your project is its focus on marginalized autistic students or those students you mentioned that have other salient identities. This can include those who are community college students, LGBTQ+ individuals, and so on. What are some of the recurring themes you're seeing among these groups so far?

Brett Ranon Nachman (12:53)
This is what's really interesting for us, particularly as we have so much data that we're trying to comb through and ultimately produce reports or papers or other public facing materials on. One thing we're finding, you know, they have additional considerations related to transitions because many community college students, but not all, may end up transferring. So that's yet another period of change and adaptations to new environments that they have to deal with and navigate.

That is perhaps different from someone who goes directly into a four-year institution from high school and perhaps, assuming they don't engage in reverse transfer or just transferring to another four-year, that there's that level of stability. So that level of adaptation and resilience is certainly going to be heightened for those who have intentions to or have in fact navigated transfer. With our LGBTQIA+ students, my gosh, I think what's really strong in my mind is that a very strong proportion of our sample is a member of the queer and trans community, or both for that matter. So we've gone through three waves so far. Each wave of our study, we've had anywhere from 35 to 40 % of our participants identify as trans. And we know that there's high co-occurrence of folks who are autistic and trans. Our study seems to reinforce that it's perhaps even higher than we think. 

And it's worth noting, Kristen, this is not what we researchers call a purposive sample where you're intentionally reaching out to just, for instance, like LGBTQ+ centers on campuses. We put our study out there across so many different spaces. We were intentional in reaching out to minority serving institutions so that we would hopefully learn more from our racially minoritized students. But as it pertains to our queer spectrum students, it is a very strong proportion of our sample. If I'm right in our most recent set of students who we learned from, like 20 to 25 % identified as straight. And many students, as you could imagine, have multiple sexual orientations, identities that they felt like they were a part of or identify with. So I think from just a pure numbers standpoint, even though that doesn't tell... that's all demographic, that's all descriptive, it doesn't tell us really the nuances of their experiences, but I want to reinforce that this complicates the idea that maybe 10 % of all college students are queer or trans. Like our proportion might be higher than even what some published research states. 

As it pertains to the uniqueness of their experiences, I think one thing that's really apparent to me is that a lot of the folks who we've spoken with who communicate about their time in college, as autistic and queer and or trans, is that they're often engaged in those spaces too, by virtue of student organizations and campus centers, some of them wanting to engage in advocacy work. For some students, but not all, that also informed how they found community and how they engaged in a sense of pride about a marginalized part of who they are. As far as other intricacies associated with students' experiences, as it pertains to distinguishing folks who are this identity versus this identity, that's where we have further analyses to conduct. But also we're actually inviting other scholars who are interested in making sense of some of the data to submit essentially a request to access some of the data. So this is our intention as a project to make it more accessible to folks outside of ourselves. Mind you, there's a process, and if you email me, I can provide folks with a link to that survey.

Kristen Hovet (16:32)
That's awesome. And as you were speaking, I was wondering, you mentioned that there's... looking like there's actually more trans people in the autistic community than previously thought. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's because previous research hasn't been able to capture that either in how they're asking questions, or is it because there's some need to cover up that identity, or both?

Brett Ranon Nachman (16:56)
Yeah, I think you're hitting on a few of those points. I mean, I'm a cisgender man. I certainly do not have direct experiences of that. But what the data suggests and what real life experiences seem to indicate is a confluence of factors. I think for one, we recognize that many college students writ large are in a space where they're making sense of who they are. And there's that exploration of not only sexuality, but also gender identity.

So, that's not uncommon to the college experience and much more heightened now than decades ago. But we also know, as it pertains to other research and even just in society, that there's many folks in the autism community who do not follow certain norms or expectations as it pertains to gender, right? I think in many cases, hopefully greater support of that exploration, not always, unfortunately, but as a result, some of those children who are, you know, making sense of that part of themselves go to college, naturally. And by virtue of college being that space for exploration, it only heightens it. But I think, to your point, like there hasn't been a ton of research on this, but it has been emergent, especially among autistic trans children, and then ultimately adults. Young adulthood is that kind of interesting sweet spot because there's that emergent adulthood and development happening there. So why is it so high? It's all those factors and more.

Ultimately, what I found too is that a lot of autistic college students find other autistic college students naturally, by virtue of the spaces they're in. And, because we see that many folks in autistic spaces are also queer and or trans and even in queer and or trans spaces or disabled spaces, that there's a lot of autistic folks, there's that element of further visibility, which may help some folks feel more comfortable with that part of their identity. So, it's fascinating, it's nascent, and ultimately it speaks to that there's a lot more work that we need to do in the autism community to help, and not in a pejorative way, but to help feel a sense of safety and support, particularly in this very turbulent political environment and environment in the United States, and more globally, of how folks who are queer and or trans are being targeted in ways that affect their well-being and their health care and their safety. It's a further impetus for those in the autism community to further have these conversations and recognize that there's a lot of folks out there who are in these spaces and who require our commitment and fellow advocacy.

Kristen Hovet (19:31)
Definitely. So how do sensory, social, and emotional factors show up in the experiences of autistic students in post-secondary environments?

Brett Ranon Nachman (19:43)
Absolutely. Well, we know that college campuses are overstimulating on every possible front that one could imagine. There's campus events, there's folks who live in housing, there's lots happening in individual classrooms. College has a lot to offer and has a lot to have to cope with. But it doesn't mean that autistic students aren't resilient and stealthy in trying to figure out how to deal with all of that. The students who we've engaged in interviews with and learned from via surveys and photo voice have found a lot of opportunities for self-regulation, whether it be sometimes in terms of formal accommodations, but folks referencing using noise-canceling headphones, trying to be mindful of not positioning themselves in spaces that are really crowded or overwhelming. 

But again, a lot of that onus falls on the individual autistic college student, which I don't think is the most fair, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree on that. I think colleges are increasingly more attuned to various modalities for programming and having more quiet spaces, but that only goes so far. I was engaging with an interview, they were sharing how they felt like, yeah, it's great if there are sensory spaces, but it feels like everybody on campus sometimes can be in one sensory space and that completely defeats the point. 

All that to say that there are a variety of techniques that colleges can do to reduce the overstimulation, I think, first and foremost is providing options for folks in how they present themselves in a space and making that more of a norm as opposed to an exception. I can even think of attending some events, not on college campuses, but I know they've been held on college campuses like the... I think they're called like the silent discos where people are wearing the headphones and jamming to their own tunes. I think that's a nice alternative that's kind of in the spirit of what supports your autistic folks actually supports everybody. So, not that you're going to completely eliminate having a live band or whatnot, but to have alternate forms for folks to jam out to music that they enjoy, but without feeling overwhelmed. So many tools and, as I said, a lot of the autistic college students who we've engaged with are proactive in figuring out strategies that work uniquely for them, but it shouldn't all fall on them.

And that's where faculty and administrators and staff need to not only engage in further professional development, but really take note of who's around them and what are our folks' needs. And we know that what supports one autistic individual dealing with hypersensitivity is not going to be applicable for all. I think there's something to be celebrated in many autistic college students being very self-aware of what works for them and what doesn't and being able to figure out how to either remove themselves from a space or adapt to a space or advocate for change in a space to be more comforting.

Kristen Hovet (22:36)
You're the Director of Research for the College Autism Network. This organization supports students transitioning into, through, and out of college. What are some practical or systemic supports you found to be game changers for autistic students?

Brett Ranon Nachman (22:53)
Yeah, well, the College Autism Network has been in existence for nearly a decade now, and it's a wonderful organization for which I've been a part of for the past eight years. We find that there are a variety of tools that greatly support autistic college students. For one, it's been the emergence of these autism support programs. Some have been around for 15, 20 years. Others have just popped up over the past few years. We've cataloged well over a hundred of them throughout the United States on our College Autism Network website. We actually have a database that folks can access and it's a free tool, and you can look at what specific programs offer regarding services, where they are in the country, if they're at community colleges versus four-year schools. 

They are really powerful mechanisms for community building, for one's self-development and autism pride and advocacy, mentorship, gaining further tools for feeling more adept in navigating the employment part of their experience. Autism support programs are crucial for so many students and across all of these programs, I mean, they serve thousands throughout the country. But, by the same token, they're not at every college and not everybody has access to the programs at their specific college. I've gotten to know many of the folks who direct these programs [and] students who have participated in these programs. They are truly life-changing for so many students in feeling like... that they feel confident in themselves, that they have greater resources, that they have a sense of autistic pride and confidence. I think that's one of the biggest impacts that a college can have. First and foremost, I think that stands out more than anything else. 

I think in tandem with that, it's having folks on your campus who are experts in autism and neurodiversity. Often that responsibility gets relegated, sometimes unfairly, to folks who work in disability services offices. It's not just them, right? I feel like everybody has a responsibility to learn and do more, but some have more of a background and expertise in that. But I think administrators and college campuses that invest in professional development for faculty, for staff, that can go a long way. We're recording early April. I just gave a presentation today to folks out of some North Carolina community colleges. There were about a hundred in attendance. This was a Zoom session, and being able to reach folks who are in a variety of capacities, and then they themselves can be folks who spearhead conversations and efforts on their own campuses, kind of translating some of the takeaways from the conversations that we're having in those presentations.

That can be a conduit for change, but it comes down to colleges investing in that programming. And by no means am I plugging myself or the consulting work that I do. There's a lot of other folks, great folks who are participating in this space. But if campuses can make that commitment, and not where it's a one-time check off this box, we had a neurodiversity event, but truly are investing and engaging with professionals and folks who do this work, that, I think, sets a really nice tone that can yield dividends that we can't even anticipate at this point. Even what all of us are seeing in our PEACES study and findings is, we're asking students like what more can be done on college campuses. And a lot of them talk about faculty who are more educated about autism and how to provide more informal accommodations to make things easier. 

I think we're certainly in an interesting space right now in terms of how disability and diversity is discussed if at all on our campuses, but even with all the upheaval right now, it's not going to change the fact that there are autistic college students on our campuses. There are lots of good people whose mission is to support them, and even if that's not their primary responsibility, who ultimately want to make sure that they are getting what they need to out of their experience.

Kristen Hovet (26:51)
Thank you so much. And one thing I want to talk about with accommodations is... it has to do with masking. And I know a lot of late diagnosed autistic folks struggle a lot with masking. I think all autistic folks do to some degree. I haven't really seen any accommodations that specifically address masking. I don't know if you know of any, and I don't really know what that would look like or how information about masking would inform those, but it's just something to think about, I guess.

Many autistic students do end up masking heavily, as we know, in post-secondary settings. Can you tell listeners what that might look like and how masking impacts students' success and mental health.

Brett Ranon Nachman (27:31)
Well, rather unsurprisingly, masking, and this has been well documented by other scholars as well, masking can be really harmful to an individual in the sense that it takes a lot of effort, it can be very overwhelming and emotionally intense. Masking also works as a form of self-protection that can actually be advantageous. So it's not where it falls into just one camp. There's this binary and there's also the messy in between part where at times it can be great to mask and at times it can be really bad to mask and I'm not going to be one to tell someone how they should be presenting in a space. A lot of it is informed by who you're around, how comfortable you are in your development and journey and identity as autistic and what resources you have access to. 

It's not a surprise that it is very taxing for folks to feel like they're presenting a self that's different than who they feel inside to others as a means of feeling safe or protected or... non-stigmatized. And there's a lot, like I said, there's a lot of fluidity to it, right? Like, I might be more comfortable in an autistic space where people may have similar traits to me than in a non-autistic space. We see from our students who we've engaged with that masking is prevalent, but masking takes on different manifestations depending on where they are in their college experience and what they've been a part of. A lot of really fruitful conversations are often had among many people in autistic spaces where they can process that together, where they realize that they're not alone.

Kristen Hovet (29:03)
And what do you wish more faculty, administrators, and researchers understood about autistic students, specifically in higher education, and especially when it comes to making spaces more inclusive?

Brett Ranon Nachman (29:16)
I'm a big proponent of that you don't have to completely overhaul everything you're doing in a classroom or on campus to make a setting more welcoming and supportive for our autistic learners. Many folks who follow the tenets of universal design for learning would similarly agree that the adaptations that we can make to spaces to support autistic students or neurodivergent students or disabled students would probably be advantageous to students writ large. I would say that you can make spaces more inclusive by recognizing that not everybody learns the same way or navigates space the same way. 

We're in an age, I think, through online learning, having dealt with COVID, and certainly dealing with a lot of uncertainty in the world right now, we recognize that we often need options for how we gather information, process information, and showcase our strengths; and the autism community is no exception to that. So I would push for faculty, as I often talk with them about, that there are changes you can make to your classroom environment and your curriculum that is going to be really advantageous to autistic students and all of your students. So a few quick things would be creating greater choice in terms of assignment options, making yourself accessible and welcoming to have those individualized conversations, but you have to establish what some of the standards and norms are. So that's where the instructor has a really important opportunity to set those community guidelines that share, okay, here's what... here's the type of setting we're creating together. Here are our expectations for one another. Here's how to navigate certain processes. Faculty need to spell this out. It can't be left for interpretation. You have to make things concrete, explicit, be detailed with your assignment instructions, very deliberate about how and in what ways you're grading stuff. But I think a variety of assignment options that allow students to channel their interests, strengths, unique ways of processing information is really crucial.

For administrators, it's realizing that some of our college campuses and even specific buildings are decades old, they're not necessarily always the most inviting in terms of... from a sensory standpoint, but also a programming standpoint, there need to be more options as far as for how people can disengage when things are overwhelming. So it's not just quiet spaces, like converting a small classroom or a closet into a quiet space doesn't solve your problem. It's how are you creating that space? What tools are you giving to individuals. I think, as someone who had done some research in the past on affinity spaces, and I had done some work years ago on like LGBTQ+ campus centers, like these don't exist in silos, as articulated earlier. There are a lot of autistic folks who are in queer spaces and trans spaces, so you need to have readings and resources and tools that are going to be applicable to their experiences too. Staying abreast of the recent literature is really important, and not everybody's going to read a journal article, especially if that isn't your forte, but most everybody can watch a training or look at an infographic or read a news article or report. And I think staying abreast of all that new information is crucial in terms of decision-making. 

For our researchers, I talk a lot in higher ed spaces, because that's my field, about, you know, autistic students are everywhere. We have an opportunity to change the narrative and I think language plays a huge role: not using deficit-based language, recognizing that language conventions change. We need to be adaptive and recognizing, as we were talking about, that autistic students are not a monolith. There's a variety of lived experiences in the autism community and we need to be mindful on how we're gathering those voices. 

One thing that was crucial to us as researchers on this PEACES study is that even if we didn't have the largest proportion of autistic people of color, that doesn't mean that we can't find ways to further elevate their perspectives. So in analyzing the data, particularly the interviews, to kind of set the norms or standards for how we analyze data, we exclusively relied on autistic people of color in establishing what those codes and main topics were. All of these tools, among others, are ways in which we can make these spaces more welcoming, both in terms of the settings we establish and redesign, but also the studies that we conduct on and about autistic individuals. 

Thankfully, I think we are seeing a lot more research come out from autistic people themselves. My collaborator and I are autistic and making sense of that in different ways, based on when those diagnoses arrived for us and also who we're in conversation with. Many of our collaborators are parents of autistic children or neurodivergent. I hope our faculty, administrators, and researchers realize that seemingly small actions, whether it be the language we use or spaces we redesign, can be really significant in terms of perceptions and quality of experiences.

Kristen Hovet (33:56)
Definitely. And I'm curious, in your experience, are you seeing more autistic researchers and or more autistic researchers who are out about their being autistic?

Brett Ranon Nachman (34:08)
Yeah, I think so. I think, this may have been four or five years ago, perhaps a bit more: Sandra Thom Jones, who's in Australia, who just published a book on autistic people and academia. Sandra had assembled a list at the time, and it's since grown, of folks who are in these spaces. And as you read more research about autism, particularly more of the social sciences types of articles, you'll sometimes see positionality sections where people talk about their connections to the autism community. So I think it is much more present now than it was 10 years ago. And we have a lot of folks who are later diagnosed, where [there's] an added layer of complexity in terms of how they make sense of themselves studying this community for which they're a part of. So I think that's definitely been encouraging. 

But I also want to say that by no means does this work need to be carried out exclusively by autistic autism researchers. It's a shared conversation. I think certainly folks who are directly in that community have different perspectives and strengths that they can contribute that are different, but I'm of the mindset of if you're doing good quality work with good intentions, it doesn't matter to me how you affiliate, so long as that you're committed to meaningful inquiry. But I think it is promising. And certainly I feel a super strong responsibility for when there are folks who are a little bit younger or more emergent than me who reach out and are interested in doing this line of work.

It gives me hope to think that we're building a base of autistic autism researchers. Yeah, that makes me happy.

Kristen Hovet (35:41)
Definitely. And as a reader, and I guess translator, of research, for myself, I've noticed a change in the language definitely over the last few years. So that's a good sign. So speaking of late identified or late diagnosed autistic students and autistic individuals in general, those are... make up a lot of my listeners of the podcast. What advice do you have for late identified autistic students who are navigating post-secondary spaces?

Brett Ranon Nachman (36:08)
The folks in our sample for PEACES is more of that traditional age autistic college student, mind you it's open to anybody who's autistic and who's undergraduate in the United States enrolled in classes. All this to say, yes it's no doubt there are a lot of autistic folks in college who are older. You might have adult learners who are late diagnosed and you might have a traditional age undergraduate student who's late identified. What this affords is a greater sense of, I think, self-awareness of who you are because developmentally you're at a different place when you're 18 or 24 than when you were 10 or younger for that matter. What does that mean in terms of navigating post-secondary spaces? Well, it's recognizing that many college campuses, but not all, are often environments where there's a lot of folks who are coming into their own, even if it's not autism. And even if there's not always those formal spaces to find community, it doesn't mean that you are alone. 

And I'm always of the mindset of engage in exploration, both in terms of who you are, but also what exists. Even campuses that may be in spaces that are relatively conservative or may not have a wealth of resources often have some groups, even if informal, that allow our folks to connect based on marginalized identities. Now, autism is certainly more niche and emergent, but it doesn't mean that those don't exist. If your campus has a disability organization more broadly, not even disability services office, right, that's everywhere, but a disability organization or a disability event. We see campuses where, during awareness months and celebration months, there's more programming. Lean into that as a way of getting to know other people. 

And I'm the first to say, like I find going to big events to be overwhelming and hard at times. But it doesn't mean that I don't try and I don't push myself at times. And I would offer that advice for later identified autistic students to realize that they're not the only ones. There are other people just like you. It just takes some time and patience to find those folks. And, as you're comfortable, to talk with faculty about your experiences, because faculty and staff members, they may know people who have similar experiences and can maybe connect you accordingly.

A lot of it is that social capital piece. It's that exploration of the setting that you're a part of. It's putting yourself out there. And it would be like, if you're so inclined, engage in greater autism advocacy, even outside of campus, like the Autism Society of America, and there's local chapters and other spaces.

Kristen Hovet (38:40)
Before I let you go, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to mention?

Brett Ranon Nachman (38:45)
Well, I just appreciate the time and the space, Kristen. This has been great. I welcome folks to connect with me. If you have questions or further contributions that you want to add, you can find me at the University of Pittsburgh. A simple Google search of my name will yield my contact information. But these are much bigger conversations and the more we have them, the more we realize that we're not alone. And there's a lot of people who are invested in supporting autistic college students and their success.

College Autism Network, I think, is a front runner and trailblazing force in these efforts and, kind of the promotional part, we have an annual event called the College Autism Summit, which gathers a few hundred folks who are self-advocates, students, professionals, researchers, faculty, employers, and more. We have poster sessions and presentations and keynotes, networking, really meaningful conversation around autism in higher education. This year in 2025, the event is in Pittsburgh. It's my backyard, so I'm really excited. It's November 2nd through 5th, and we really encourage folks to explore it. 

Just search for us on the collegeautismnetwork.org website, and you'll see a banner for the College Autism Summit. Even if this isn't directly applicable to you, something tells me any of you listeners, even if you or yourself are not a college student or a parent of a college student or connected to a college student in your household, I imagine you probably know someone who is or someone whose work is on this front. So be sure to pass the word along. But we're part of a much larger narrative that autism in higher education is exciting, emergent, and ultimately all of us have a responsibility to play in ensuring that folks have a meaningful and valuable experience and that we're providing them with the tools and the support in their next chapter that are reflective of their success and ideals.

Kristen Hovet (40:32)
A huge thank you to Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman for being my guest on The Other Autism podcast. And that's all I have for you today. Thank you so much for being here. Until next time, bye.