EP38: Autistic Hispanic Personal Trainer in New York

Meet Dennis Bourne, a late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD personal trainer and martial arts instructor. Dennis shares his journey growing up undiagnosed in New York with immigrant parents, recounts his experiences as a Hispanic neurodivergent person, and describes how ADHD and autism diagnoses reshaped his worldview.

Dennis also offers fitness and dietary tips for neurodivergent individuals and emphasizes the importance of adaptable routines. Tune in for insights on self-discovery, embracing neurodiversity, and finding strength in both body and mind.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Follow Dennis Bourne on Instagram and on YouTube.

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The views, opinions, and experiences shared by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or production team. The content is intended for informational purposes only and should not be taken as medical or professional advice. Please consult with a qualified healthcare provider before making any decisions related to your health, fitness, or wellness.

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• 14:34 [Ad] When We Die Talks
• 15:13 (Cont.) EP38: Autistic Hispanic Personal Trainer in New York

Transcript

Kristen Hovet
Today I’m speaking with Dennis, who is based in New York. Before I share our conversation, just a reminder, if you’re interested in joining the Patreon for The Other Autism, you can head on over to patreon.com/theotherautism. That’s all one word. If you’re listening and watching on YouTube, you’ll notice I changed the background just a little bit. I moved The Other Autism sign. It was kind of bothering me to have it behind me because I would often, my big head would cover part of it and my lights would reflect off the acrylic part of the sign. I’ll leave it for now and see how it goes. And without further ado, please say hello to my guest for today, Dennis. 

Dennis Bourne
My name is Dennis Bourne. I’m 41 years old. I was born and raised in Queens, New York. I am a late-diagnosed autistic adult. That came only three years ago, two years ago now. But before that, I was diagnosed ADHD before that. So that was my identity for a large majority of my life. And then I noticed, you know, things that weren’t aligning with that diagnosis, which led me down to that path to finally get diagnosed. Yeah, so I’m born and raised in New York, half Puerto Rican, half Costa Rican, you know, primarily Hispanic. 

My interests are, I’m a martial artist, I’m a personal trainer, still actively sparring and competing. I have my own brands. I’m a geek, I’m a gamer. I love anime, I all that good stuff. The biggest thing about me is I’m a huge proponent for health, wellness, personal improvement. All those things came as a result of me trying to feel better about existing in society. And basically a lifelong mission that started since I was a teenager of trying to fix myself and always asking myself, What’s wrong with me? What are the things I can do? The long-term benefit is that a lot of those habit changes stuck with me and I was able to better myself as a person, but it wasn’t until the last couple of years that I realized how much of it was not actually my fault. The struggle of knowing when are you able to forgive yourself and say this is not my fault and hold yourself accountable for things that you could have controlled. I guess that summarizes me and I’m happy to be here because after my diagnosis, I went through that period, which I think we all do after our diagnosis, of trying to find our tribe and trying to find like-minded people and see who’s out there and what support is out there. And surprisingly, there’s such a lack of support. And as I did the research, I realized we don’t have a voice, we don’t have a leader, we don’t have strong representation. And also, to get into another topic of marginalized groups and underrepresented groups, neurodivergents or autistics of all walks of life from all countries are underrepresented and misunderstood across the world. 

Kristen Hovet
I was curious, you mentioned ADHD. So I’m curious to know when you got that diagnosis and if they assessed for autism, just out of curiosity. 

Dennis Bourne
I guess I’ll start from the beginning with the ADHD. So I always knew there was something wrong in terms of my attention span, always beating myself up for feeling a certain way, being able to excel at certain things like being able to build a computer and teach myself how to build a computer from scratch and successfully doing it just because I wanted to, but then not being able to pay attention at computer engineering class. I tried to major computer science in college and I just couldn’t do it. And I’m so mathematically challenged when it comes to formulas and letters and algebra is completely foreign to me, but then I can do percentages in math. But it’s just the way my brain’s wired.

The ADHD self-diagnosis was, I would say, about 10 years ago now, but then I seeked help and I saw a few different therapists who all agreed. Some were quicker to medicate me than others, but I did make the choice to go non-, um, unmedicated because the first time I did try a version of Adderall, I just didn’t like the way it made me feel. I did it for a month and I felt so artificial that I decided to try to manage those symptoms, you know, without the help, which took a lot of work, but as I got more involved in accepting that part of myself, I re-enrolled in school and I realized I could only ever study something that I really care about. So whether or not I was deciding to do something with my degree, I decided I’m going to take health. I’m going to take the thing that I’m passionate about and was able to manage the ADHD symptoms in terms of the executive dysfunction. But then I got involved in, I don’t know if know ADDCA [ADD Coach Academy: Accredited ADHD and Life Coach Training Program]. So they do support for ADHD and, through taking their life coaching course, because I was really trying to get into this and really identify myself, I noticed a lot of things that I felt were not aligning with the classic ADHD symptoms, you know, because ADHD’s mostly been addressed, executive dysfunction and the different types of attention, inattentive type or hyperactive type, et cetera, et cetera. 

And then there was one class that they had that they taught about the ADHD autism overlap. And then I started seeing this side of the tree. I’m just like, wait, that’s me. And that’s me. And that’s me. Like the eye contact and the human connection and the emotional dysfunction, all these things, the stimming, and so I started really thinking about it and then I took a lot of free tests and I didn’t want to self-diagnose because that’s a big thing to tell people nowadays. And then finally, I want to say about a year-and-a-half to two years ago, I don’t have the exact date, I went through a place that actually diagnoses for this and accepts my insurance. They did a whole questionnaire process where they sent a questionnaire to my sister. They wanted to speak to somebody who knew me as a child and then somebody who knows me now and then cross-reference with their, the way they diagnose, and then I went through extensive interviews and then I came back with like level one least support needs, which for me, like, you know, and the thing is a lot of people were asking, like, you get the mixed reactions. I feel like you’re going to get one of maybe three reactions. You’re going to get just complete blank stare, like, huh? Like, no, you’re not. I’ve known you your whole life, but they don’t know what they’re looking for signs. You got just the people who are like, why do you feel like you have to know this? What does this do for you? Like, they don’t understand. I got a lot of that from people close to me. And then maybe you’ll get the few people that were like, okay, yeah, I get it. Like my ex-girlfriend was like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. 

Me and you agree where for me it was a life-changing thing where I was at least able to literally relive my whole life through this new lens and be like, that explains that and that explains that and that explains that. So yeah, so this is how we got here now. And again, I was trying to find my tribe and just trying to find what’s out there and came across you just by searching like, What podcasts are out there? Who’s talking about this stuff? So just the fact that you’re even doing this, I respect that and just being able to create this conversation space. 

Kristen Hovet
Thank you. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah. 

Kristen Hovet
I’m also curious about, and thank you for sharing that, I’m curious, you wrote about being Hispanic and autistic in New York. And so what are some things, like experiences you’ve had that might be different from someone who is not Hispanic or does not identify as Hispanic? 

Dennis Bourne
In a general view, as I was researching just the state of autism in the world, I realized a lot of cultures don’t even have a word for autism. I think Indian culture doesn’t have a word for it. This is all new science for, you know, and depending on who’s on board at what time. So not even like speaking about autism, just literally speaking about going to a psychiatrist or mental health is not, you know, very, it’s not a conversation topic in Hispanic communities, especially in New York, you know, Puerto Rican communities, like worrying about appearance and how you look to other people. How does our family look to those families? And what will people say about us? From birth you’re trained to, especially with the males, machismo, don’t show weakness, you know, that’s the cultural side of it. And then growing up in New York, growing up in Queens, New York, especially because I’m 41, so a child of the 90s, it’s New York culture to hang out with your boys and crack jokes on each other and there’s always going to be one that gets picked on in the group. There’s always the one that gets the most jokes, you know. Even entertaining the aspect of saying anything like ADHD and things like that was not even in the conversation. And even if you get into it nowadays, it’s just like, Oh, they’re just slow. It’s just slow without any interest in trying to deep dive any further than that. 

And then another struggle with me was the fact that I’m the youngest of, I have two older siblings, I have two older sisters, and my parents are both first-generation immigrants, Costa Rica and Puerto Rico, my mother. So when they moved, you know, they had to go through the whole integration period of trying to fit in. Like my mother hung out with like a lot of Italians and things like that. It just kind of conformed to American culture a lot quicker. And then by the time I was born, they were speaking full English in the house. Like my older sister can speak Spanish, but then the middle one speaks a little bit less. And by the time I was born, just English and nobody taught me Spanish really. So to this day, I don’t know if it’s part of my learning disabilities that I just couldn’t, even when I tried to learn Spanish, I never really could pick up on it. So like, I know a lot of words, but I can’t fluently speak it. I can’t have a conversation.

When I was a baby, I never wanted to be held. I didn’t want to be touched. So one of my, I show up as very touchy, sudden touches are upsetting to me, loud noises, you know, sensory overload. So they would always tell stories of when they would pick me up and the family would always pick me up. I would always just say, please, like that was one of my first words and just to ask to be put down and I never wanted to be touched. I didn’t want a pacifier. I was like the kid in the corner. So I came out like that, where I’m already viewed as kind of being slow or shy. And then I wasn’t really learning Spanish. And then I was also chubby. So, you know, in Hispanic culture, they’ll often give kids nicknames. So I was gordo, which is just fat. So it’s just like, all right, so my name is fat now. That’s it. So I’m just this shy kid who can’t speak Spanish. My name’s fat. Right. So, so childhood was a little rough growing up with family and everything like that, I never really fit in with family. I was, I always felt like I was on the outside. Most of my extended family, like cousins, things like that. I just feel like it was double hard there because even if there was any kind of knowledge to seek support, I wouldn’t have gotten the support, honestly. So then you add to the fact that in New York, Puerto Ricans, Hispanics tend to grow up with Black kids, Black American kids. So just a lot of cross-hanging out and the culture is the same where it’s like, even in the Black communities, like some of my best friends, there was no conversation in mental health. It’s always just about trying to look tough, trying to like, just survive, you know, really just trying to hang out with the right group of people while not being harassed by this group of people.

I feel like there’s just a very big lack of support. One thing, I got this phrase from, I saw this in a TED talk actually, but there’s also a racial component to like autism where like, on the TED talk, they said something like, I want to quote the person, I forgot the name, but they said, close your eyes, right? And just picture an autistic person. Most people would picture Rain Man-type person or the poster child, you’re not picturing this Puerto Rican kid growing up in Queens, like that’s the last thing you’re picturing. So even when you associate autism, neurodivergence, you’re thinking of a typical type of person, right? I guess it’s the lack of recognition that it exists in all communities and then it’s the lack of support within your own community as well. So I’m more likely to get support or help from people outside of my own community as opposed to people within my community, if that makes sense. 

Kristen Hovet
Right, yeah. Did you find that, I know for a lot of people, like we end up sort of glomming onto other neurodivergent people as children or teens…

Dennis Bourne
Yes. 

Kristen Hovet
…who later end up being neurodivergent. So did you have that at least? Did you have some friendships or, you know, supportive people around you? 

Dennis Bourne
I think as I grew up and started to really, as you learn the traits of what to look for and what stands out as neurodivergent, you realize how much you are attracted to it. Right. So like, I realize now two of my ex-girlfriends who I still speak to are both neurodivergent. We didn’t realize at the time, but as we got older, we learned about it. I’m just like, you definitely have a different form of ADHD. And one of them had like a form of Tourette’s. My friends growing up were always like the outcasts, geek, you know, kind of people. Like I’m pretty sure one of them, undiagnosed, is probably autistic as well. But I learned also not to try to diagnose people. I went through that phase, too, of trying to like spot everybody. I think we all go through that phase, too. 

Kristen Hovet
Yeah, definitely. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah. Trying to like find celebrities. I went through that already. But yeah, definitely, definitely. I was always, I’m always attracted to like the underdog, the underserved, the underprivileged, you know. Yeah, I was never, I would try to like survive around the popular kids and find ways to survive, but I would hang out with the outcasts. A lot of kids in the same situation, lacking the type, my dad’s around, I love my dad, but there was a certain type of guidance that I needed that I was not quite getting that I found in things like, well, Bruce Lee, know, like martial arts, Dragon Ball Z, anime, Ninja Turtles, like all the strong role model types. Ninja Turtles because of brotherhood, I always wanted brothers. I love my sisters, but I always wanted brothers just to have that camaraderie. So I think, yeah, I think a lot of us found community just in looking up to superheroes, male role models, because again, you know, any male child growing up kind of needs that, you know, they need that guidance. And even as an adult now, when I go to work and in my professional career, like, I look to strong leadership. Like I know how to lead, I know how to teach, but you always need to be a soldier and a teacher. Whether those lessons come from fictional media or a person, we do all need that. But most of mine came from like, again, comics, video games, characters like that. And they served me well because I still carry those lessons with me. 

Kristen Hovet
Cool. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah. 

Kristen Hovet
Awesome. And I was wondering if you could speak more about your interest in health and in martial arts and how that supported you.

Dennis Bourne
I would say definitely the strong martial art interest came from my first exposures. So definitely Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers, you know, all those things. Earlier Bruce Lee movies. And the funny thing is the first Bruce Lee movies was not even Bruce Lee. There was a whole bunch of like knockoff Bruce Lee movies that came out in China that I was exposed to thinking it was Bruce, but just the martial art aspect drew me to it. And then I was exposed to the real Bruce when I was a teenager and I learned his lessons. Definitely the earliest exposure was like, yeah, video games like Street Fighter, yeah, Power Rangers, Ninja Turtles. So just the interest was there, but there was always the fear of actually doing it. The only option that you really had at the time was traditional karate schools, which were very kid-based. I always wanted to do it and never did, but I was unathletic in high school. I feared the running tests during gym time. I started smoking cigarettes in high school trying to be cool. So I was also like out of shape and my lungs were compromised. After high school, I started going down the bad route of like, while it was illegal selling weed and stuff like that, you know, back in New York when it was a bigger crime and just getting into trouble, things like that. One of my friends was, we were smoking and hanging out and one of my friends was watching a Bruce Lee movie and it was like real Bruce Lee, it was Game of Death. And that’s when like, I had like that universe moment, that epiphany, I was just like, This is so cool. This is amazing. I love this guy. And then I started researching and then, this is when I was maybe 18, and then another friend of mine, out of nowhere, was like, there’s a school in the city that we discovered that teaches this style. And I looked at it, it was like Bruce Lee style. And I was like, all right, let’s do it. And it happened so soon after that movie exposure. So then I started training. It was rough in the beginning, but I just kind of threw myself in there. So that was when I was 19.

And then since then it’s just been an on-again, off-again journey, but it became such a part of my life that even during those off-again times, I always found my way back to it. And that’s as far as the martial art goes. Now, as far as the other part of the health and wellness is, again, the whole identity thing of feeling like there has to be something that I’m doing wrong that’s making me feel this way. Like there has to be a reason why I’m nervous all the time or why, you know, this anxiety or this hyperactivity, which I didn’t even realize it was hyperactivity. I just understood it to be this like feeling in my stomach, this unchanneled energy, right? So I was always researching supplements and things like that. And then just over years, just consistently researching and trying different things and using myself as a guinea pig. I’ve tried juice fasting. I’ve tried, I was vegan for a little while, vegetarian. Then I tried all types of diets, intermittent fasting on and off, which I still do sometimes, but I’ve tried different extreme diets. Till I finally reached a point now where I’m just kind of on the whole foods diet, basically eating one-ingredient foods, minimally processed, no seed oils, minimum carbs, minimum sugar. And it’s been working for me. It’s been working very well. And basically, I guess that sense of service that we have, that neurodivergents are known for, I just try to work on myself and always like, what I’ve decided is, I try to be an example for other people to show that it’s possible, right? Especially for people in my age group now, anybody who’s 40 and above, I’m really about fitness over 40. Cause now I’m looking around and I’m seeing people that I grew up with having knee problems and knee surgeries and struggling to go up and down the stairs and all this, you know, things that happen to us as we age. And meanwhile, you know, I’m over here fighting and doing sparring videos and doing all this stuff and pushing my body and getting better. And I’m just trying to show like, this is possible. These things are possible, but you just, there’s a step to it. So I’m just trying to lead by example. And I guess that’s currently my mission, while also trying to be sort of a role model for neurodivergents as well, just to show that I understand what the struggles are and try to give advice in those regards. The last thing I’ll say is, I’m not gonna get into the details about where, but at my job at a very large company, they employ a lot of neurodivergents and I know who they are. And they’re a lot of them are like 20 something. So I just look at them and I see the struggles they’re going through. I can say like, I know what that feels like. I know what you’re going through. I know this unhealthy reaction will lead to this. So I try not to push people. I try not to be that guy that’s like hovering and giving advice unsolicited, but I just try to let people know like I’m available. That’s my big thing. Like, listen, if you need somebody, I’m available. And some people have taken me up on that, but that’s really it, I just want to be a source for people without being pushy, you know. 

Kristen Hovet
Have you found that a lot of your clients are neurodivergent? 

Dennis Bourne
I’m kind of a terrible businessperson, especially with the whole executive function part of it. When I’m in the situation of actually doing the work, teaching somebody or teaching in class or whatever, I’m in the zone. But when it comes to marketing and advertising, being consistent, I’m pretty bad at that. I just make myself available. So I’m very sporadic in terms of, if somebody reaches out to me, I’m here for them, you know, and we’ll just negotiate how we want to do things. Cause people are all looking for different things. I help people with martial arts training or just general nutrition advice, or sometimes people just want somebody to talk to. But in terms of the martial arts aspects, surprisingly, there is a very large attraction to martial arts from neurodivergents. Very much so because I’m part of a big community right now, and like half of them are ADHD or neurodivergent. 

There was a moment that I had where, I used to live in Brooklyn and I was training at a gym over there, and I would always be in the heavy bag area doing my routine and training, kicking and everything, and I would just be in my zone. There was one lady that would come by sometimes and she was always wearing a mask, because this was close to the pandemic, and just kicking the bag all wrong and just doing her thing. Like, it’s cool, you know, as long as you’re exercising, right? But she would do her thing in the corner, and there was another guy that used to work out. He looked like he had a mean face, but it looked like he was in the zone, right, and doing his own thing. One day I’m training and I see the lady kind of copying me. I finished my workout and she walks over and she’s telling me what her workout was. And she’s like, Did you see when I did this and this? And I’m talking, I’m like, she’s autistic, oh wow. And then we started connecting, and then the other guy who I always read as a mean face came over and introduced himself immediately when he saw us talking. And then as we’re talking, I’m just like, he’s autistic. And I’m just like, okay, and then it was a bell moment. I was like, they’re just trying to burn their energy in whatever way they can, right? Especially ADHD, neurodivergents in general. The best way I describe this to neurotypicals, because I like to use a lot of comic book references, is like the Incredible Hulk, right? You have Bruce Banner and you have the Incredible Hulk. Bruce Banner has accepted that he is the Hulk, right? He has this unchanneled energy that’s always gonna exist in him. And the only thing he can do with it is use it constructively. He’s gotta use it constructively or he could go crazy and burn down the city like in the second movie. And that’s what it feels like. 

It’s like there’s an endless energy, nervous energy that you have to channel somehow. Cause if you don’t get it out, it can turn self-destructive or you could binge eat something or watch too much TV. I think that’s what we all share, and I think that’s where the attraction to martial arts comes from, because it’s one of the most relaxing activities you can do after hitting the heavy bag or just training. And also the fact that we crave the hyperfocus so much, but it’s so hard to achieve it. Cause you’re trying to find the next thing where if you’re training with a partner, if you’re sparring with somebody, you cannot lose the focus or attention because the consequences are you’re going to get hit, right. So if I’m training with somebody and we’re sparring, we’re fighting, I have to keep attention and I crave the hyperfocus so much because, again, one loss of attention, there’s a penalty, there’s an immediate penalty. So I think even though, yes, it appears to be a dangerous activity, it’s also so beneficial for the brain. Then when you finish, you hear about the runner’s high, it’s that natural euphoria that you can’t achieve even when you drink or smoke marijuana or whatever. It’s just like, it’s just different. There’s a certain peace that you gain.

Anyway, all that’s to say that, yes, as you start talking and as you start getting to know your colleagues, you realize a lot of us are neurodivergent. There’s a very huge attraction with martial arts. And that’s a trend that I keep seeing repeated as I go to different schools and meeting different people. 

Kristen Hovet
I’ve never been in martial arts, but I’m super into fitness. And I was into sports when I was younger, even though I had trouble, you know, connecting with the other teammates because I was different. But I loved the actual like doing it and learning the plays. For me, it was basketball mainly. But I imagine, in martial arts, there’s also a draw because there’s instant kind of structure and order.

Dennis Bourne
Yes.

Kristen Hovet
And you mentioned brotherhood, right? So I guess there’s an instant sense of community 

Dennis Bourne
Community, yes.

Kristen Hovet
And shared goals. So I think that would be very advantageous to a lot of autistic folks.

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, and also the climbing the ladder aspect, you know, the check mark, goal, goal, goal, because I was training for a long time in different schools where there wasn’t really a progression system. I did boxing for a couple years. Just to summarize, I’ve done boxing, I learned out of a gym in the Bronx for a little bit. I trained with a couple of coaches. My main style is Jeet Kune Do, which is Bruce Lee style, which is more of a philosophy than a style, but it’s a kickboxing style, you could say, that mixes different martial arts together. I have studied Muay Thai. I mostly like to do striking as opposed to, you know, Brazilian jiu-jitsu is big right now and grappling, but I prefer to stand up and strike.

Where I’m at now is, since I’ve been doing it for so long is that I basically do striking. I stand up and I hit people with my feet in my arms, you know, cause it’s, it’s past the point of, as Bruce Lee taught, it’s past the point of restricting yourself to just one style and saying like, I do karate or I do boxing. I do everything. I just fight, you know? So, and when I fight, it just comes out in a way of self-expression as opposed to a different style. I think that counts for anything that you learn, right? Like you put your mind to something and you’ll learn a form of something, a basic form of how it’s supposed to be done. And so you start to form your own thing. Like whether you’re learning how to sing or play guitar, like, these are these structures and then you become Jimi Hendrix and you just create something else because now you’re expressing yourself. And I think that’s the goal of any martial arts. 

But prior to that, the whole progression system is very attractive because when I finally found schools that do have a progression system, it feels good to have tangible rewards for your work, just to say like, I earned this and I earned this, you know, and I think that’s also what makes it very attractive. And also it’s a way of getting rewarded for something that you’re probably better at than other types of awards that neurotypical society would give us, you know, doing very good in school and we can do great at some classes and not others or, you know, sitting still at a job, you know. Being rewarded for being physical and learning a new skill and competing and things like that, you know, that’s a great feeling. So I think, yeah, that’s a big part.

Kristen Hovet
As you were speaking, I just thought of something and I don’t know if this is a thing, but trying to get autistic kids into martial arts early. Do you know if that’s a thing? 

Dennis Bourne
It’s not a thing in terms of it being specifically for autistic kids, as far as what I’ve seen, but I’m pretty sure there’s a huge amount of neurodivergent children doing it because most of the reason why parents enroll their kids is because they’re being bullied. They’re naturally there. I’ve never been involved in teaching kids a lot, but I’ve observed a lot of kids’ classes and, yes, most of the kids are awkward, being bullied. I think the principle of most children’s classes are pretty generally serving though. I think that there’s a job of just teaching you core principles of standing up for yourself, knowing when to fight, when not to fight, sense of justice, defending your friends. Despite the fact that maybe a lot of schools are very profit-minded, you could say, in terms of how they structure and things like that, I think at least for children, there’s a value there.

And then when you get to an adult, it changes a little bit. From what I can see, there’s still a healthy community of kids still learning it. They are most of the customer base, I would say, because the cool kid who is playing football is not in the martial art class, for sure. They’re doing other things. 

Kristen Hovet
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I just thought of it because I’ve spoken to some people who are in martial arts and they started later in life and they’re autistic and they said, I wish I knew about this sooner. 

Dennis Bourne
Me, too.

Kristen Hovet
And they thought, they had this assumption that it would be, you know, a lot of neurotypicals and they would not fit in the same way they don’t fit in at school. But from what I’ve heard, it sounds totally different. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, surprisingly the opposite. 

Kristen Hovet
Just before we change topics, I’m curious to know if you have specific tips for autistic and other neurodivergent people when it comes to fitness, health, and wellness. 

Dennis Bourne
We’ll start with the food. Let me not get too personal, but somebody in my family is thought to be autistic. They’re pretty sure they are. And they acknowledge that one of the struggles they have is texture, texture with eating, right? That’s a big thing within the autistic community. Unfortunately, a lot of that texture tends to be like protein, you know, filets, things like that. The unfortunate part is that you’ll see a lot in the neurodivergent community is carbs, chips, you know, macaroni and cheese. On top of the things that already happened to you as a result of ingesting too many carbs and sugar and all that, the inflammation, the way it affects you, the way it affects your mood, insulin spikes, crashes, which affects your energy. On top of the way it affects neurotypicals already, when you add autism, the neurodivergent experience, it just multiplies everything. The crashes, you crash harder and the spikes, you crave even bigger spikes, right? That then rolls into caffeine. So then the caffeine becomes Red Bull. I work with a lot of neurodivergents and a bunch of them are hooked on Red Bull, daily, two times a day, three times a day. On top of already having hyperactivity and then constantly having sugar spikes and caffeine spikes is making it a lot harder. 

In terms of advice, I would try to find ways to work with your texture palette, but simplify your plate, right? So for anybody, all walks of life, there’s a hierarchy to your plate. The most important thing that you should be seeking, the most important theme of your plate, of your meal, is protein. The first question is, What is my protein? What is my protein for breakfast, lunch, or dinner? Because most people are not getting enough protein, unfortunately. There’s different mindsets in terms of how much protein. You’ll hear 0.8 grams per gram of body weight, which is the low end, which is to not be at a deficit. I would say just shoot for your body weight in grams of proteins. You know, that’s the easiest way. So I’m trying to shoot for 175 grams personally, right?

First question is, have your protein first because carbs are so easy to get. You’re gonna get carbs from anywhere. You get carbs from fruits and vegetables. It doesn’t matter. So that being said, with this person in my family, they don’t like meat filets, but they like ground meat. They like ground turkey. They can eat meatballs. They can eat burgers, you know? So you could have, you can have burgers, right? Burgers aren’t the worst food, but it’s the bun that makes the burger more unhealthy. The actual patty is just animal protein. It’s when we put cheese and ranch and big buns and with a side of fries, now it’s no longer a healthy meal. Familiarize yourself with what good sources of protein are, eggs, tuna, and just try to find ways to work with your palate. It’s a lot harder if you decide to go vegetarian or vegan, but it is possible. I have no problem with you going vegetarian or vegan. We demonize animal protein because we’re thinking of all forms of how it could be negative to you. So chicken nuggets, which are fried in canola oil and breaded chicken and fried chicken and chicken wings and all these, it’s all about the food prep. It’s not about the food. 

At the end of the day, and this is, I don’t have studies, but this is scientifically proven that you need to consume enzymes. You need to consume forms of life, which is greens and vegetables and fruit and one-ingredient food, potatoes and avocado, you know, salmon, beef, whatever. But when you prepare it, when you deep fry it, when you bread it, when you process it, now it’s no longer the nutrient-dense food it was, right? So you take a potato, a baked potato that is good for you. A baked potato or potatoes are good for you. Yes, it’s carb, yes, it’s starch, but it’s still enzyme, it’s still life. But when you chop it and then you deep fry it and then you process it and then you fry it again out of a bag, it’s no longer the food it used to be. Now it’s just this processed, soaked-in-grease food, right? 

So that’s the first thing is make protein your goal and then have a little bit less of the carbs. And when you do have carbs, just be kind to yourself, right? Because there’s a mentality out there, there’s the whole, and keto’s fine, keto’s a perfectly fine way to eat, but it’s, in my opinion, not sustainable for a lifetime. It’s more of a tool. You know, we demonize rice. It’s okay, have rice and beans, right? Because rice and beans together, the amino acids together make protein, right? We call that Spanish protein in my community. It’s still protein because it’s rice and beans. And Spaniards get plenty of protein. We do, trust me.

Kristen Hovet
I love rice and beans. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, exactly. Rice and beans is a staple of any cultural diet. It’s okay to have rice sometimes. It’s okay to have your carbs, especially if you work out, but don’t let your carbs be French fries and potato chips and things like that. As neurodivergents, we love to study things, we love to deep dive. So don’t look at what the front of the packaging says, flip it around and look at the ingredients, the ingredients will tell us the whole story. So you want to get things that have the least amount of ingredients. You want to avoid things, which is most things unfortunately, are made with canola oil, high-fructose corn syrup. In the ingredients profile, it goes in order of what the content is. So the first ingredient is what most of it is. If you’re looking at something, one of the first three ingredients is high-fructose corn syrup, that’s a big red flag. 

Kristen Hovet
You sent me something and I think I remember hearing, Let treats be treats again. Was that something? 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah. Yeah. 

Kristen Hovet
So the reason why that’s really interesting is because I feel like autistic people often, we get into patterns. 

Dennis Bourne
Yes.

Kristen Hovet
And so I think you were talking about, you have a treat food that ends up being a core staple of your diet. Because we’re also into the routine, it’s so hard to change it. 

Dennis Bourne
Yes, yes. That’s a big saying that I’ve been repeating a lot and it’s been catching on. I was like, yeah, make your treats into treats again. Because the comfort foods that, you know, unfortunately people eat so often, you know, that Snickers that you’re having daily on your break from the vending machine in your office or that, you know, that Starbucks Frappuccino, whatever, once you consume a food daily, it is now a part of your diet. It’s no longer a treat. A treat is something that you have once in a while and when you have it, yeah, you’re going to have a dopamine rush, but it’s because you’re having the pleasure of it being a reward or something fun, you know? So like, you have birthday cake only on your birthday or on birthdays, because that’s not something that you would think you would have every day. Birthday cake is for birthdays. We understand that. But Snickers daily, you’re on the Snickers diet, you you’re on the candy bar diet. 

We don’t have to quit the foods that we enjoy. That’s something that I try to really get into people’s mindset is that, you know, with the whole internet culture, with health and everything, it’s this all or nothing mentality. And you hear it, there’s always that person at work who comes in one day and they’re like, All right, today I’m vegan! This is it, this time I mean it. And then everybody in the back of their heads are just like, All right, let’s give this about a week. Unfortunately it’s true because you get these impulse rushes, right? And it happens, you know, you might’ve just had one day when you had a really good night of sleep and the next day it turned out okay and then you’re just like, You know what, I’m invigorated. And then you want to try this really complex crash diet. And that diet might be, again, I’m going vegan today or I’m going keto. And now you just, you convince yourself in this one day that you’re not going to have any more bread for the rest of your life or you’re not going to have any more animal protein. It’s so extreme. And you don’t have to do that. 

You really just have to make small habit changes, right? It’s the same way that you say routine. So let’s get into that is, you have to take a look at what your routine currently is, right? And it’s the classic Einstein mentality of doing the same thing again, expecting a different result. If you’re unhappy with whatever your state of life is, whether it’s, you know, how you feel, how your energy levels are, or how you look, you have to acknowledge, you have to use that self-awareness that we’re known for to really look at yourself and be like, Okay, where do I begin? You just can’t do the crash diet thing. And for me, and I always tell the stories that for me, it was sugar in coffee. I used to have coffee daily with the sugar. And then I’m like, Let me take the sugar out of the coffee and now let me have it light, no sugar. And that seems like such an insignificant thing for a lot of people, but the amount of grams of sugar I was eating, I was intaking daily from having three cups a day was a pretty large amount of calories. And it was affecting me, affecting my insulin, my energy levels.
 
So just by taking that one thing out, you’re not shifting your routine too much, but you have to make a conscious decision and you have to really be honest with yourself and tell yourself, What is the one change right now that I can handle that I’m going to keep for the rest of my life and make it as small as possible, right? It has to be something small that you can live with. Like, You know what, when I go to work and I have breakfast at 7 a.m., but I could wait till 9 a.m. Maybe I could wait till 9 because I have a break at 9 a.m. and I’ll have a snack. It doesn’t sound like a lot, right? But if you can just do that one thing and work at that one thing for a couple of weeks to a couple of months. And then now it’s like, all right, that’s it. Nine a.m. breakfast, never anything at all before that. It becomes routine. And you’re now eating less calories instead of having two snacks, you’re having one less snack a day. Over time, you will reap long-term rewards, and I like to use a lot of comparison. It’s like investing, it’s like stock investing. I could throw all my money in crypto and lose it just as fast, or I could just throw a little bit in the S&P 500, just a little bit, a little bit. And over time, it’s guaranteed profit because it’s a safe investment. 

Kristen Hovet
For sure.

Dennis Bourne
So aiming it at neurodivergents and autistics, we’re all about routine, so you have to acknowledge what your routine is, whether it be eating, sleeping, your bedtime, your waking up time, and just pick one small place to start that will then snowball into other places. If you then master that, let me move my breakfast ahead or let me remove the snack, once that becomes a behavior where you don’t even think about it, then you just move on to the next thing. Now it’s just like, all right, so let me stop having the daily soda now. Let me have it every other day. And that’s it. So it’s really just a lifelong journey of making changes that you can live with and accept that this is your life now. Because again, I’m 41 and right now I feel like I’m in the best shape of my life. But that’s only as a result of a long journey of changes and adjustments I’ve made since 19, you know, and I’ve had tons of plateaus. It’s just the will to keep getting back on it and just keep looking for that little sense of progression that we all see. 

Kristen Hovet
Yeah, one thing I’ve done, cause I identify with the texture thing, too. I don’t really have trouble with meat so much, but in terms of just eating junk, kind of junky food, I really like crispy and chewy texture. So one thing that I’ve learned to do is just look for recipes that kind of replicate that, but are still healthy. So I do this Brazilian crepe that doesn’t have oil, but I do add butter after and then an egg. So it sort of replicates that crispy chewy thing. And it’s way better than eating, I don’t know, some kind of pastry or something. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, that makes sense. Cause for me, there’s comfort in carbonation. There’s such a comfort in bubbles, you know? So for me, I had to replace it with seltzer, which is another good one.

Kristen Hovet
Same, yeah.

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, exactly. Some people hate carbonation, you know, some of us can’t stand it. Some of us love it. If I’m having something salty, I want something carbonated. And over time, it takes a while for your palate to really change. It’s proven, it really does take time. You have to deprogram your senses. After you cut out soda and stuff for a good amount of time, when you do have it, you really do taste those chemicals. You really taste the unnatural nature of Coca-Cola and things like that. And I still have it sometimes if there’s a party, like all right, let me have a few sips. It’ll literally be a few sips and I’m just like, you know, hmmm, cause you just feel a difference. And even when drinking, I recently got to a point where, I don’t want to say, like, I’m sober, I don’t drink anymore. Because that’s too extreme. But I literally will only have a drink if it’s hanging out once in a while, every other month I’ll have one drink, you know, just making it a treat, like never taking it home and drinking at home. But all that to say is that when I do have it, like I had some sake the other day, we were at a Japanese place, and I really felt it in my stomach because I was away from it for so long that when I had it, I could feel the acid feeling, the pure alcohol, you know? So I was like, I was good, you know, I was a little tipsy, I was like, I’m fine. And then you learn how to enjoy it in moderation. And I think that counts for everything. 

Well, another lesson I learned is, with that extreme mentality of constantly just quitting things, it’s not so much that you need to quit things, but you could replace it. You need to replace things. Like I’m a gamer for so many years of my life, because that’s my special interest. I’m such a gamer.

It’s part of my life. But there were so many times in my life when things would happen, a relationship would fail, whatever. Something didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. And I would always find a way to blame my interests. I would always come back and be like, man, if I can only do this less or I would always beat myself up. I would always try to find different ways to rationalize it. And I would always tell myself, well, while I’m doing this, everybody else is bingeing Netflix. Or while I’m doing this, these people are playing fantasy football or watching sports. I’m not a sport person at all surprisingly, even though I’m an athlete. But still there’s that stigma behind, or any of our special interests. A lot of times, with autistics it’ll be various specific things like trains and things like that. But it doesn’t matter what it is. If it’s something that makes you happy and gives you peace, because we need that, and that’s a whole other topic, is we need that decompression time, but we need that part. All that’s to say is there were times in my life where I was just like, I need to quit gaming. I need to stop this. I need to get my stuff together, but it was never a matter of giving up the things you love. It’s just adding in the things that you need. 

So now, when I wake up in the morning, I’ll game first thing in the morning, just a little bit, just to wake up and just play a little bit. And then I’ll have my little coffee, but then immediately I go for a 30-minute morning walk. And then every day I’m doing that every day now, I’m trying to make it a habit. And then I come home and I’ll work out for like an hour and then, and then I’ll do a couple of things and then I’ll go back to gaming. And it’s just like, all right, now I earned my leisure, right? I just added a few chores to do so that way, when I do go back to my leisure, it’s like I earned it. And then with the hyperactivity, it’s like, sometimes I’ll get so much done and I’ll still be like, I need to be doing something else. I shouldn’t be doing this. So it’s just being kind to yourself. I think that’s hard for autistics, just acknowledging when you’ve earned the time you need for yourself. 

Here’s a thing that I’m so passionate about that is so under discussed and looked upon, right? Because what I addressed before, what I was saying, was there’s two things I want to address, is the nutrition aspect, which I did. And then there’s the exercise aspect, right? So with the exercise aspect, if you really sit down and look at all the advice that’s given in terms of exercise, it is so neurotypical-serving because what’s one of the first things you hear from all these influencers is like, Oh, you got to use MyFitnessPal, you got to get this macro tracker and then you got to use this exact program, and then you got to count these reps and sets, and then you got to write these notes down and then you got to… The routine aspects, yes, right? But to expect somebody with ADHD or any type of neurodivergence, autistic for the most part, to macro-track, to stop in the middle of a meal and sit down and count calories and make that a thing, and then to count these exact reps and sets. 

Exercise has become so compartmentalized and so complex when it doesn’t have to be. In martial arts, it’s self-defence, but there’s hundreds of styles in the world, but at the end of the day, we have two arms and two legs, like Bruce Lee says. We’re all just defending ourselves, right? But there’s so many different versions of it and these strict disciplines. At the end of the day, exercise is simply moving your joints, your limbs, arms and your legs in different ways. There’s range of motion. So first is my shoulder. I want to make sure I can move my shoulder in all ranges, right? That’s the first part of my health. If I can’t go here, if I can’t go too high, I have no business lifting heavy weight. You need to make sure your joints are healthy. So just start doing range-of-motion exercises. You don’t have to count reps and sets. You just have to be more on top of stretching and, you know, the whole philosophy of exercise until failure is very beneficial to me. There’s doing an exercise set of like three sets of 10. Okay. And then you gotta sit there and count. I used to try to work out that way and I would literally stop counting at four, like one, two, three, four, I’m looking around. Well, you know, I’m always losing count. For me to do that consistently, three, four days a week and never lose count, it’s impossible. But if you take a light weight and keep doing it, keep doing it, if you can do like 20 reps and you’re not tired yet, add a little more weight. You do it until you fail, maybe at like 15 reps, nothing too heavy or too challenging. Do it till failure. And then you add a little more after a few minutes of rest and do that till failure. The only thing exercise is, when we get to resistance now, is training resistance against your muscles so that way you’re struggling to move your muscle. Bicep curl, push-up, triceps, whatever, squats. You don’t have to get so fixated on reps and sets as long as you’re feeling resistance on your muscle and you do get that failure feeling, you get that burn. And this is where the self-expression part comes from, right? So you have to get to know, first of all, how your body feels. Don’t pay so much attention to external stimulus and things like that. Just figure out what’s feeling, how you’re feeling.

A great way to start, if you don’t even want to go up to weights, is resistance bands. With a resistant band, you can put resistance on your joints in any direction, right? I can go this way on my shoulder. I can go forwards as long as I have an anchor. That’s it. And then get used to that feeling of the burn and then find ways to make it harder. You could change how far you’re standing or you could just increase the reps. But all this is to say is that I stopped counting reps and sets years ago. All right. I’m still losing weight. I’m still in great shape. I’m an athlete. I don’t do reps and sets anymore. I exercise based on how I’m feeling and I go until failure and then I switch. Right. You can do a set of push-ups and then do a set of squats and then go back and do push-ups and then go back and do squats until failure. And then is it too easy now? Okay. Add a little resistance to it. Maybe now carry weight, get to know yourself, get to know what feels good to you. As long as you are creating that difficult moving pattern and progressively getting better. If it feels okay to you, it’s exercise. That’s it.

Kristen Hovet
I think the other thing that might hold some of us back is perfectionism. 

Dennis Bourne
Yes, that, too.

Kristen Hovet
We get an ideal in our head and if we can’t do that right away, we just get frustrated and we say, Well, I guess I’m not doing it at all. 

Dennis Bourne
Or the analysis paralysis. I was stuck in that for years where I was so over-researching exercise and all this stuff to the point that I put myself in a corner of not doing it because I was afraid of doing it wrong. I’m just like, I’m going to feel like this and I’m going to feel like this, and if you don’t get immediate results, you’re doing it wrong. And it’s just like, just start doing the thing. 

Kristen Hovet
For sure. That was definitely me, too. But then I got into the endorphin high. And so now I just want to chase that and I don’t really care how I get there. 

Dennis Bourne
Exactly. There’s so many ways to get there. Bike ride or on a walk, you know, just get moving. Literally just move. That’s it. 

Kristen Hovet
To switch topics a bit, I know from email exchanges, you’ve mentioned job struggles as a neurodivergent person. Could you tell me more about those struggles?

Dennis Bourne
Yes. I have light sensitivity sometimes. Well, sorry, not so much light, but sudden unexpected stimulation, sudden touching. So like the same person that I could be intimate with, if they unexpectedly touch me, I’m just like, you know, it’s just the sudden contact. In general, space in general. Again, because mentally, I have to put myself into a mode. So it’s like, Okay, this is intimacy time. But if not, it’s just like, get away from me… 

Kristen Hovet
A hundred percent. I’m like, Oh my gosh, one hundred percent, yep. 

Dennis Bourne
I have to compartmentalize where my senses are going. And I tell this to the managers at my job, if we take time and we sit down and intentionally have a conversation, you’re going to get all my attention. But if I’m at work, if I’m literally doing anything else, even small talk in the hallway is gonna be so hard for me. So, again, I don’t want to say exactly what I do, but the company I work for is known to be very accepting, very diverse, things like that. During my… diagnosis, you see, it just goes away sometimes. So during that period, you know, I was like, I want to spread awareness and things like that, cause the company I work for, there’s a lot of awareness and things like that. So I learned just how misunderstood it is, to the point that people never heard the word neurodivergent. They have never heard the concept. So there was a period I went through where I was trying to be open about it. Again, I was getting varied reactions. Of course I got one person which is like, Well, you don’t look autistic. I’m like, okay. Or you don’t seem, I never would have guessed, you get that reaction or you get the, No, you’re not. Like people will just tell you like, No, you’re not, no. Like they’ll just tell you to your face, like, you’re not who you say you are. As if you’re trying to make it up. 

So where I’m at now mentally, unfortunately, is that nobody really cares. Honestly, like at the end of the day, being autistic anywhere in the workplace or in whatever situation you find yourself in is it’s us working to make them comfortable, if that makes sense. And I don’t want to turn this into us versus them mentality, but the neurodivergent, autistic experience is conforming to what neurotypical society expects regular behavior to be. Even in job interviews, eye contact, make eye contact, sit still, don’t fidget, you know, certain parts that are just unnatural for us. And things they teach, right? Things they teach about, you know, ways to have proper interviews, ways to build interaction with people. Don’t trust people who are shifty. Don’t trust people whose body language says this. I’m like, None of that applies to autistics. So what I try to do now is I try to just let people know about the parts of me that may affect our interaction, but I try not to say too much in terms of like, I’m an autistic adult because still it takes more work. 
Okay, so there’s a few steps to it. There’s whether or not they accept you, you have to get past that part, whether or not they even believe you. And then there’s the, okay, they believe you, but now you have to explain it. You have to explain how it shows up or you have to educate them on what it actually means. And then they have to get used to now being around this new version of you that they didn’t really know existed before, right? All that’s to say is I try to just address the small parts that may affect an interaction. Like, if I just messed up, like, I’m going to forget your name. I promise I’m going to forget your name. I apologize. It’s just something about it, I know every time I meet a person for the first time, I’m going to forget your name. I’m literally looking at you like, Your name is this, your name is this, and then two minutes later it’s gone. It happens, I had an interview recently. Or I’ll address the eye contact maybe if it’s in a situation like in an interview, I’ll be like, You know, sometimes I struggle with eye contact, you know, just forgive me, it’s part of my ADHD. I kind of dismiss it, I say it’s part of ADHD, but I still find myself shying away from acknowledging the autistic part. So all that’s being said is that every day I go to work or every day I’m around the workplace, it almost feels like a strategy session. 

I’m always finding… in the last two years, I’ve rebuilt and reformed myself into a different person based on things I’ve been through, right? In the last few years, there’s like four versions of me you could look back on and say like, That’s an outdated version of me. And that’s an outdated version of me. Cause I kept having to adjust based off of interactions that I’ve had that went poorly. Me being too open with some people, you know, and I work in a place that’s very populated, let me just say that. A lot of people work there. So yeah, it’s just always going to be a struggle. And I think the biggest part for autistics is just figuring out whether or not we’re going to disclose it. When we’re going to disclose it, when it’s appropriate. 

I did disclose it on my job profile because one of the disabilities is ADHD and neurodivergence. I was like, Well, I’m not going to lie about it and it’s not going to affect anything. So I’m just going to disclose it and they don’t really question you about it. But it’s just a struggle of being honest with people and figuring out whether it’s necessary. And, again, the masking part comes from, I guess a little of that imposter syndrome comes out, too, where you start asking yourself like, Is this me or is this the autism? Is this my fault or is it not my fault?

Kristen Hovet
Is part of the challenge, then, having to mask? 

Dennis Bourne
Definitely. Like I said, we’re expected to maintain eye contact. We’re expected to, you know, hugging is a lot more frequent now than it ever has been in the past. People are hugging like crazy, right? And that alone is a struggle, you know, because again, I grew up in New York and nobody’s hugging nobody, right? You’re gonna get a five and that’s it, keep moving, you know. So even that, right, a group of people, they’re all hugging each other and I’m just like, and I struggle with simple greetings sometimes. Oddly enough, I work with my hands, I’m very physically active, but I have texture sensitivity in my hands. So like sometimes they don’t want to shake hands and you just find yourself having to put yourself in situations that, again, are just not necessarily, it will be frowned upon to say no, basically. So you just force yourself to hug more. 

And then the whole needing to just have space. It takes so much effort and energy sometimes to show up, right? To show up and mask, to show up and put the performance on. When you have those burnout sessions, when you have those times where you just, you’re almost losing yourself, which brings me back to what I was saying is, it’s hard to balance both, but then not get the reputation of being a lone wolf. And I find that a lot of times at different places that I go, different jobs I work at, I always get the lone wolf representation. People say, like, That guy’s a lone wolf, he stays to himself. He just, you know, and I swear it’s not on purpose. It’s just that I’m so focused on the task at hand because the executive functioning and my job is very, involves a lot of multitasking and thinking. While I’m working on this task and this task and this task, to a neurotypical it might be easy for them to be like, Hey guys, how’s the weather and have a small chat and stop this then. For me, it’s like, I have to completely put all my attention onto this human interaction now, and try to not act weird and be disrespectful while still trying to do my job. It’s balancing the two, it’s hard to attention shift, which is why, again, I always say, I’d rather have the attention to have a little sit-down conversation and say, this is talk time. 

Kristen Hovet
Right.

Dennis Bourne
And not being able to jump back and forth, so being able to focus switch is probably one of the hardest parts, definitely. 

Kristen Hovet
Right. You used the word mode earlier. And that’s the word I use as well. It’s like, if I’m not in the talking mode, I can’t talk. 

Dennis Bourne
Yes.

Kristen Hovet
You mentioned hugging, which is interesting because I feel like, for me as a female, hugging is more of a thing and it’s almost expected. And we’re sort of seen as social lubricants, I guess is a word that I’ve heard. So you’re supposed to do all the things right. So for me, it’s hugging. I do hug, but then always afterwards, I didn’t really want to hug, you know? So even though I’ve initiated it sometimes. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, it’s such an uncomfortable thing to tell somebody, right?

Kristen Hovet
Like, I don’t want to touch you. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah. I literally had a conversation with a coworker and somebody who I trust and I’m cool with, but, and it wasn’t meant to be disrespectful because he’s a hugger. And I was just like, I said it in a way that I wasn’t saying I don’t want to, but I said it in a way to let him know that I’m adjusting to doing this. And I was like, When I came to this place, I was never really a hugger, but I’m like, I’m learning through more exposure to be more accepting about it. But that’s not my go-to, which he was understanding about. And we’re cool like that, but, you know, to a regular person, it’s just like, you just have to do it sometimes, I guess, but there’s times when you’re just like, I’m not in hug mode. I’m somewhere else and to turn it down would be very disrespectful. 

Just for an example, I’ve been told in relationships in the past that, with the unexpected touching, that I keep being accused of being not affectionate, you know, not affectionate, not affectionate. But then I’m always like, Yeah, but when it’s intimacy time, I’m very affectionate and things are good. It’s because of that mode switch. They’ll like go for my arm or something and I freeze up and I tense up and they take it personally as if I just don’t want them to touch me. It’s not that I don’t want you to touch me. It’s that I don’t want to be touched at all in this moment. And it’s not even intentional. It’s an unconscious reaction…

Kristen Hovet
Totally, yeah. 

Dennis Bourne
…that I understand why somebody would take offense to, right? I literally seize up. It happens sometimes. It’s uncontrollable. So like that would be a situation that I would explain to somebody, with my partner or if it ever comes up again, but yeah, in regular social situations, it’s a constant navigation of trying to read the room and figure out what’s appropriate and willing to make yourself uncomfortable. 

Kristen Hovet
How has knowledge of your autistic identity impacted how you view your past experiences, decisions, and or your worldview? 

Dennis Bourne
I’ve seen with your other guests, I actually saw your recent one with the teacher. When we get our diagnosis, there’s always going to be that aha moment. And then there’s always, again, looking back on the moments that may or may not have been your fault, right? The first part of the journey that I went on was learning what to forgive myself for and what I needed to explain, right? So my entire childhood, all the way through high school, I can say most of that was not my fault in terms of how I showed up, how I was treated, how I was bullied, just trying to fit in, the things I beat myself up about, you know. I know a lot of that, my problems in school, the way I was excellent in one class and would fail math and would fail these other classes and teachers would call me not motivated and lazy and whatever. Those parts I know I could forgive myself for. I could look back and be like, You know, that was just the hand I was dealt.

Going into my 20s and things like that, I could see that’s where the heavy masking really started showing up was high school into my 20s and trying to figure myself out. But at the end of the day, just to answer the question, after first going through the part of exploring my past and forgiving myself with, you know, failing out of college and having to get my degree late. Then I started reflecting on again, in past relationships, how I was always called unemotional, unreactive, not getting super excited for certain things, or being hyper-logical, things like that. And having muted emotions in general. Looking at Mr. Spock, who’s of course, one of our role models, super logical creature. So now that I know that mode of thinking is basically me, it’s a part of me that I have to accept and live with. Now I’m working in the other way around. So now I am trying to be more intentional and more emotional towards the more important things and acknowledging that a lot of the other things don’t even deserve that attention. So like family and very close relationships, I’m really trying to just be more human and pull those emotions out. 

But in terms of worldview, now that I understand the logical thinking, it makes life so much easier. It makes life so much easier. So that’s where, that’s the positive aspect of it. I’ve basically become this person, unfortunately, I almost feel like an alien where I stand outside of society. And now I just study human behavior, right? My rabbit hole of health and wellness went from physical health, which I feel like I’ve mastered in terms of at least understanding the basics, to mental health and society health and things like that, interpersonal health. It makes me a bit of a leader in some aspects, which makes it easier to teach and it makes it easier to teach habit changes and all that life coaching stuff like that. For example, the act of getting to work on time to me now is so obviously easy yet it’s so hard for so many people to do, right? And it’s just like, it’s as simple as, well, the most important thing I can do right now is earn income. I need to earn income in order for me to live and pay rent and things like that. The place that gives me income is my job. So if I’m spending the majority of my time at my job, why would I not put effort to go on time and show up? You know, it’s just that line of thinking. It’s like, I think backwards and I’m like, Well, it’s so much easier to do this because I understand the logic behind it. 

But I will admit that it does make me, as much as I try to guide and help people, it makes me very unempathetic sometimes in certain situations like, you know, when I hear people always complaining about being tired, I always know why. It’s because, one of those things, it’s like when you learn something, when you learn all these things, and since I’m such a researcher I always know the whys and I know that this person is not acknowledging the why, if that makes sense. It’s just like, Well, I mean I could tell you why, but look at what you ate for breakfast. How many hours sleep did you get last night? When was the last time you exercised? But that’s so insensitive to say to somebody.

I witnessed somebody who did not live the healthiest lifestyle pass away. And I made the decision because they died pretty young, 65, I think it was, and I just made the decision, I was just like, I never want to be there. I want to delay that as long as possible. I want to delay that moment. I don’t want to be in the hospital bed for as long as possible. So logically speaking, I’m going to live a life that’s going to prevent that.

I just love how I understand how my brain works. And I’m just now basically, again, just thinking with logic while trying to squeeze in an emotion where I can. 

Kristen Hovet
Right. So it sounds like you’re sort of leaning into and accepting your autistic traits instead of working against them. 

Dennis Bourne
Exactly. Exactly. You know, I can get into a pit and fight a guy who’s twice my size and no problem, no fear in my heart and laugh about it. But then you ask me to sit down with the same guy and have a conversation in a bar and I’m nervous and I’m like, What do I say? What do I do? 

Kristen Hovet
Yeah.

Dennis Bourne
I’ve accepted that that’s just a part of my life. It’s just something that there’s nothing I can do about. I’ve accepted that, you know, when the camera turns off, I’m going to be contorted and then all over the place and trying to control my body. And with those negatives, I still, in the burnout and social interaction, social battery, I’ve accepted all those things. I’ve just accepted how to manage it. And really, since there’s so much work that we have to put in to have those interactions, I just try to really pick and choose the ones that are worth the effort. Is this person worth the internal anguish? I know it’s a bad word, but the internal anguish and anxiety it’s gonna cause me to have a regular conversation with this person. Is it worth it? And if it is, all right, let’s do this and I’m gonna do the thing. 

Overall, yes, I would never change a thing because I don’t think I would be half the martial artist or I’d be half the researcher or I would be half aware or on top of my habits as I would be if I wasn’t autistic. Despite the struggles, despite my upbringing, I’m a believer in the universe and science, that’s where my faith ends. I just follow the science and, yeah, maybe I have some regrets, but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change it. Honestly. 

Kristen Hovet
I do have a question about, you mentioned emotions and people saying that you’re sort of shut off or something. I’m curious because I’ve had the opportunity to be around some younger kids recently that are autistic or in the assessment process and they’re very emotional, but I’m wondering if the feedback they get from others, it’s like they learn to repress it. Often autistic people will have like an, almost like instant reaction emotionally, but we suppress it because…

Dennis Bourne
Yes.

Kristen Hovet
…we’ve learned that we’re over the top for a lot of people, like we’re too much. 

Dennis Bourne
Yes. I think part of that is, I’m sad to say how young these kids are being medicated, that’s part of it. Rocking and hitting your chair and things like that, all of these behaviors are viewed as against society. Sit down in your chair, stop, stop rocking, you know, sit still, be normal. I think, yeah, we just get trained to suppress it at an early age. I certainly did. So all of my anxiety goes right to my stomach, right to the pit of my stomach. Of course I learned how to mask and suppress it, but I know when somebody gets me upset, when there’s a strong emotional reaction and argument, it’s like an explosion in the stomach. To my own detriment, I’m suppressing it and then it’s going to turn into stomach cramps and heartburn. It’s literally just stress turned to cortisol, just sit there and then you have to burn it off, which is where the exercise and things like that come from. 
One of my triggers, one of the most triggering things, probably one of most triggering things you can do to autistic person, is to speak over them, is to speak over them when they’re trying to get a thought out that is important to them, because it’s already so hard to have a conversation and to express yourself. 

But anyway, just to go back to your point, yes, I think a lot of it, so much of it is just trained behavior. I used to be a pretty reactive kid. I used to run around the house and things like that, even though I would stay to myself, play alone. I also used to like, when I was with my friends, we would do physical things and we’d play football and laugh and yell. I had some outlet, but especially nowadays, the problem is that kids don’t have those outlets anymore. Nobody’s playing football in the streets. Nobody’s playing outside anymore. Everything is inside, you know, all the attention is now going towards social media, iPads. So it’s a different world now and there’s so many more distractions than before. So it’s like, it’s a lot more challenging. There’s outlets, but at the same time, there’s also a lot of misdiagnosing happening, I think just due to the fact of how distracted everybody is and how much external stimulation there is. There’s the autistics and neurodivergents who genuinely need help and genuinely are looking for support. And then there’s a whole bunch of people who are being diagnosed too soon with ADHD and being medicated when they simply have issues with either, again, poor diet combined with overstimulation leading to attention issues, which is being diagnosed ADHD, but it’s really not.

The over-medication and over-diagnosing is causing a shift in the worldview of neurodivergence because there’s so much yelling about it from mountaintops and it’s being heard in the wrong way, if that makes sense. 

Kristen Hovet
Mmm-hmm. Like it’s sort of trendy. It’s like a trendy thing. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, exactly. It’s a trendy thing on TikTok. It’s working against them cause, again, when I found you and I was trying to see what’s out there, I saw lots of, not to offend anybody, but I saw lots of what appears to be well-to-do people making funny and trendy videos from nice apartments about neurodivergent life and things like that. And I don’t see any representation from the people who are autistic and had a hard life or are now homeless or living in shelters or are being called, you know, the crazy guy in the subway when that guy just never got help. That guy’s autistic and never got help. That’s all it is. 

The overexposure and the wrong message that we’re getting, I think is making it a bit harder for the acknowledgement to happen. There’s not a single celebrity or somebody who’s really representing it in a right way. Not to get into names or whatever, but like, you know, we have people coming out with Asperger’s syndrome, multimillion dollar moguls who are Asperger’s, but like, well technically you’re autistic, but A, they don’t want to say the word. And then on the flip side, they’re doing things and acting in a way that works against it. 

Kristen Hovet
Mmm-hmm. A little bit toxic. 

Dennis Bourne
Yeah, a little toxic. You probably know who I’m talking about. Yeah. 

Kristen Hovet
Oh, yeah.

Dennis Bourne
The Asperger’s people out there who are making it harder for us, right. So I think that’s a big part of it, too. What’s making it hard to just to be open. Right. That’s what it is. It’s hard to be open about it because of a lot of misrepresentation. 

Kristen Hovet
That makes sense. For sure, for sure. What’s your favorite video game? 

Dennis Bourne
Sure, yeah. We could talk a little bit about that. Definitely my favorite video game of all time is Final Fantasies III, which in Japan was called part six, so anyway, Final Fantasy VI for the Super Nintendo and Street Fighter, if we’re talking fighting games, which are a huge influence. I think why, it’s an RPG game and I think why RPGs are so attractive to autistics and why they’re such a strong to neurodivergent communities is because, again, the sense of progression. You start out as this character and you’re weak and, you know, it’s a good life lesson, right? A lot of my life lessons I learned from video games and RPGs and things like that. It sends the message that like, you’re weak, you’re level one. You can’t even beat these goblins here, but if you keep trying and you keep trying, you get stronger and you get strong and you level up and then you could explore a little bit more of the world. And now you could explore this much of the map. And now you level up and you can explore this much of the map. Those type of games send a good message where, you know, it teaches you that there’s always an answer for progression, right? So you get to this boss and maybe your strategy isn’t correct, but if you go back and you maybe find a different type of armor and you do something differently, maybe you could beat them this way. Or games that require you to change your party and change tactics. 

Just long story short, I feel like a lot of that type of thinking, I was able to apply it to my life. I gamify life and I’m pretty open about it, even at work. I’m like, Yeah, life is like a video game. You just have to gamify it. I’m like, Okay, so what’s the goal? What’s the boss? We want to hit this percentage on our rating for this quarter. All right, so how do we level up even in the smallest bit? What’s the strategy? That’s all it is, you know, it’s making those little changes and sticking to it to reach the next goal. 

I think that’s also why we get so wrapped up in the game is because, once you become a gamer, so many other forms of entertainment are no longer stimulating enough. When I was a kid, I would watch Saturday morning cartoons and it was the most amazing thing. But then once you get exposed to games and things like that, it’s like, Well, I could sit here on this couch and watch the thing, or I could sit here and do the thing. That kind of happened to me with sports also. I could sit here and watch baseball or I can go outside and actually do martial arts, right? Once your threshold of stimulation increases, it’s hard to go backwards. 

Kristen Hovet
A huge thank you to Dennis for being my guest on The Other Autism podcast. And that’s all I have for you today. Thank you so much for being here. Until next time. Bye.